Sixers-Pistons Trade

[SpursGM-old]

But now 2 owners know the potential while only paying for it once...seems to me somewhat of a circumvention of the bank rules.

Also in the future it may be helpful to include something like "plus the potentials of 3 players" in the trade post.  It would help others realize that the trade was for fair value.

[CelticsGM]

well, the Magic openly stated they know - scouted - Robinson's potential.
before they claimed to have scouted KJ's potential

but just one true pot was paid for.

see, it helps when you share the same school ...

[HornetsGM]

But now 2 owners know the potential while only paying for it once...seems to me somewhat of a circumvention of the bank rules.

I don't think there's any rule about that. Would two GMs be barred from pooling their money to find a potential (aside from the fact that it probably wouldn't make sense to do so)? I've shared potentials before.

I don't think that stating that a guy has bad potential is good etiquette though, and should, imo, be against the rules.

[CelticsGM]

unless it's so obviously a joke like in the Sixers draft preview post ...
 

[NetsGM]

But now 2 owners know the potential while only paying for it once...seems to me somewhat of a circumvention of the bank rules.

That's never been against the rules.

Also in the future it may be helpful to include something like "plus the potentials of 3 players" in the trade post.  It would help others realize that the trade was for fair value.

It's not necessary.  Nobody is forced to announce when they have purchased potentials.  It's publicly available, but it's not necessary to announce.  Whether or not the league thinks a trade is fair is immaterial to whether or not it's a valid trade.

[SpursGM-old]

Also in the future it may be helpful to include something like "plus the potentials of 3 players" in the trade post.  It would help others realize that the trade was for fair value.

It's not necessary.  Nobody is forced to announce when they have purchased potentials.  It's publicly available, but it's not necessary to announce.  Whether or not the league thinks a trade is fair is immaterial to whether or not it's a valid trade.

Well, actually in this manner you are hiding part of the trade.  In fact you had to post "check out the bank activity" to let everyone know the full details of the trade.  Purchasing potentials doesn't need to be announced.  Trading or selling potentials to otehr GMs should be posted in their entirety on the board IMO.

As far as fair trades...it does obviously matter as the size of this thread (and other questionable trade threads) attests.

[NetsGM]

Well, actually in this manner you are hiding part of the trade.

That's not a problem.  The reason un-announced parts of deals aren't allowed is because it becomes impossible to enforce, and because it becomes a book keeping nightmare.  The true potentials have already been bought and sent to SixersGM before the trade was accepted.  There's no consideration left to be given by any party.

In fact you had to post "check out the bank activity" to let everyone know the full details of the trade.

Which is my point.  I shouldn't have had to do that, because there shouldn't have been a grand inquisition, and nobody should feel compelled to announce that.

Purchasing potentials doesn't need to be announced.  Trading or selling potentials to otehr GMs should be posted in their entirety on the board IMO.

[/quote]

What's next?  Do we need to announce when we offer strategic advice? 

the reason "hush hush" deals have never been announced in the past is because of the problem it presents with enforcing them, and with remember who owes who what.  This is not the case here.  The "secret" part of the trade has already been completed, and all debt is owed.

As far as fair trades...it does obviously matter as the size of this thread (and other questionable trade threads) attests.

No, it doesn't matter.  This prove that people like to debate.  Bad trades are still allowed regardless of whether other GM's agree to it, so if this really was a first round pick for $325, everyone complaining about it can't overturn it.

[GrizzliesGM]

This trade is fair after hearing about the money the Pistons spent. But I am glad that everyone questioned this trade because without knowing that, it looks like an unfair trade. It also looked like there was some kind of cheating involved, which is obviosly not the case.

In the future, I believe that deals like this should be handled the same way. If other GM's think something fishy is going on, they should question the deal and the gm's involved should reveal any "hidden" parts of it.

[NetsGM]

In the future, I believe that deals like this should be handled the same way. If other GM's think something fishy is going on, they should question the deal and the gm's involved should reveal any "hidden" parts of it.

This is what I've been arguing against the entire time.  Knowing whether or not you've scouted someone in the draft can present a competitive advantage.  I don't believe Sixers cared whether people knew, otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned anything, but if he did, he shouldn't have to tell you. 

Personal trading of potentials IMO is not something you should be able to force someone into revealing, and certainly not something I'm going to (without a much more persuasive argument) force people to do in the future.

[SpursGM-old]

What's next?  Do we need to announce when we offer strategic advice?  

the reason "hush hush" deals have never been announced in the past is because of the problem it presents with enforcing them, and with remember who owes who what.  This is not the case here.  The "secret" part of the trade has already been completed, and all debt is owed.

There was nothing to enforce as you pointed out.  And you did receive compensation in the form of a draft pick that others saw as a deal for the price announced.

There was nothing to be tracked so that doesn't apply in this situation.

You did receive compensation.

And this league has been about openness in dealing with each other.  Now you are supporting behind the scenes dealing.  I am not calling for people to announce when they purchase potentials.  But that if they turn around and sell or trade that information then it should be disclosed.

What is the problem with posting that you traded 3 potentials for a draft pick?  I am not saying that you have to post the potentials or even the players.  Just the fact that you traded potentials for consideration.

[NetsGM]

There was nothing to enforce as you pointed out.  And you did receive compensation in the form of a draft pick that others saw as a deal for the price announced.

There was nothing to be tracked so that doesn't apply in this situation.

Exactly my point.  The reason future compensation deals (whether announced or un-announced)  aren't allowed doesn't have relevance here, so there's no precedent (and IMO no reason) to require full disclosure and put SixersGM at a disadvantage.

And this league has been about openness in dealing with each other.  Now you are supporting behind the scenes dealing.  I am not calling for people to announce when they purchase potentials.  But that if they turn around and sell or trade that information then it should be disclosed.

This league has never really been about openness IMO.  I think wherever possible, players shouldn't be forced to divulge more information than they have to.  This league has always been about trust, which I find very different.

What is the problem with posting that you traded 3 potentials for a draft pick?  I am not saying that you have to post the potentials or even the players.  Just the fact that you traded potentials for consideration.

It should be the Sixers option whether he wants to post that the potentials I scouted are actually for him.  You can gain some insite into players a person drafts (and doesn't draft) by knowing how many times they purchased potential.  By forcing him to announce that he did so, it could have an effect, and it really isn't necessary IMO.  Whether or not you think a trade is fair should not be grounds to force someone to announce it.  If you want to, you can go into supersleuth mode, check each players bank transaction logs, and think "hm....maybe those 3 pots PistonsGM just bought seconds before the trade was announced are part of the deal".  But there's nothing that IMO requires that to be announced.

[SpursGM-old]

Well, Bods, I guess this is just one of those areas where we have to agree to disagree.

 

[NetsGM]

Unless I'm not understanding, we are witnessing a great debate that was provoked by nothing more than a need for immediacy?

In the end, I can't help but agree with what Derek is saying (at least what I understand him to be saying): what two parties negotiate is what they negotiate and what information they share with each other or the league - is their choice - hard feelings caused with other GM's or not.

And while its not entirely analagous, it does remind me of a situation I had with the former PistonsGM that got right out of hand that taught me a lot about interacting with other GM's.

[HornetsGM]

The problem I foresee is if the two parties engage in a prohibited trade and keep it secret, e.g., there's a "conditional pick" involved in the trade, but it's traded as if it's a no-strings pick, and later on we see the two teams trading the pick back and forth for nothing.

[NetsGM]

The problem I foresee is if the two parties engage in a prohibited trade and keep it secret, e.g., there's a "conditional pick" involved in the trade, but it's traded as if it's a no-strings pick, and later on we see the two teams trading the pick back and forth for nothing.

I see them as different scenarios though.  When those conditions were already finished before the trade is posted, I don't see the problem.  I mean, in this case, the potential were already bought and exchanged before the trade was posted.  Once the trade was posted, there was nothing left owed by either party.  I don't see that the same as owing future first round picks.

I mean, really, the only reason this was done this way was because the SixersGM needed those potentials by the sim tonight.  I just don't think SixersGM should have to tell the world that he just bought 3 true pots.