Where's Ivan?

[RaptorsGM]

But it just got to the point where there's no sense in participating in this league. The leagueitself is in such terrible, players talent - wise shape that i really can't find any reason or joyto be a part of. Getting a good or god forbid stud player in the draft is a pipe dream and the onlything you can truly count on are absurd amount of turnovers and inconsistency. I was rebuilding forlike 7 seasons, collected DOZENS of top picks and young talent, and all of them turned into nothingelse then mediocre role players (for example take a look at Isiah, a former 1st overall, who's noteven a top 10 player at his position). I've lost my patience cause after some time you start to feellike a fool cause all of your hard work and skills are for nothing.

That's a matter of personal opinion and can't really be argued. I have to agree that the drafts seem to be 1-2 potential stars only, and we all know Ivan didn't want to build around role players - but really, who does.

...Because 99% of his top picks turned into garbage. What that tells you about the quality ofcurrent players and the league itself? You do remember how did this league look like at thebeginning? What kind of a talent we had? That was the golden era of SSBA. A era where a stud likeYao Ming couldn't won a title even playing for some pretty powerful teams. He couldn't do it causethere were plenty of powerful teams and the league was loaded with great, superstar type players.Players you could count on.

Gotta agree with him about the golden year, that was a ton of fun when we had 10-15 teams consistently battling for top spots.

This tells you alot about current shape of this league. It seems like in order to win a ring, allyou need is to trade for a 35 year olds former superstars, surround them with mediocre supportingcast and there you go, you're champ. Yao, or Dwight leading their teams to the championship at theage of 35 is the very bottom of this league and i had enough of stating the obvious and looking likea fool in process. Either i'm a fool talking nonsense, or others are just too blind to see it ordon't want to see the obvious. Either way, since no one agrees with me on this i decided to call ita quit cause i don't want to be a distraction anymore. I'll let others to enjoy in mediocricy buti'm not taking any part of it.

This to me is an unfortunate thing. WE'VE RUN an original GM out of the league because some of us don't share his opinions on everything. Yeah, he was argumentative. I read all the arguments he had and I think alot of things can be chalked up to the difference in understanding of english. Maybe Ivan didn't always agree, and maybe he was argumentative and judemental, but he was a good, active GM. He "whined" alot, but he came from a different culture and english wasn't his first language - perhaps that was his only way of knowing how to express himself. Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I miss him, and I certainly don't think SSBA is in any shape to be running out long-term GMs.

[RaptorsGM]

Obviously these are quotes from Ivan, forget to label that

[HawksGM]

The only mistake I think this league has made, which I agreed with at the time was letting FBCB maybe go a season or two too long.  I didn't want to give it up because at the time I had plenty of time to evaluate the FBCB games and pick a player I wanted.  But there were maybe 2 or 3 drafts with a pretty poor talent level and I think the league is just now beginning to recover from that.  I think the league is good because in reality not all top picks become superstars.  And like has been said many times, these are only names, not player replicas.  I can see where Ivan was coming from, but I would really liked for him to stick it out a little longer, I think after 2 more seasons, he would have loved the league again.

[HornetsGM]

This to me is an unfortunate thing. WE'VE RUN an original GM out of the league because some of us don't share his opinions on everything.

I'm bummed that he's gone, but there's no way I'm accepting fault for his quitting. I really can't agree with this statement at all.

[NetsGM]

This to me is an unfortunate thing. WE'VE RUN an original GM out of the league because some of us don't share his opinions on everything.

We didn't run anyone out of the league.  He quit because he wasn't having fun anymore. 

As far as 35 year old vets being what pushes someone to a championship, Ivan's missing a few things.  People who get top picks, 9 times out of 10, are people with bad teams.  1 player doesn't turn around a bad team.

This is exactly the same as in real life.  Simply getting a top pick doesn't mean an instant winner.  Players have to mature, and 1 player (rarely) turns around a team.  The blazers are the perfect example.  They have the #1 pick from this year, the #2 pick from last year, and the #6 pick from last year.  And those two picks from last year are even producing, in a big way.  Does their future look bright?  Yes, it does.  but even with 3 top 6 picks in the last 2 years, they have a .368 winning percentage.

Kevin Durant was the best college player we've seen in quite a long time.  Maybe I'm missing the contenders that Seattle has instantly become. 

Charlotte has the #8 pick last year, #3 pick the year before that, #5 pick the year before that, and #2 pick the year before that.  The most wins they've ever had?  33.  Their combined winning percentage these 4 years?  31.6%

This idea that draft picks turn around franchises instantly is simply not true, neither in SSBA or the NBA.  If you think all top draft picks turn out to be good in the NBA, you're not paying attention.  In fact, I would say our "strike out rate" in SSBA is significantly lower than in the NBA.  Like in the NBA, it takes a SERIES of good moves to turn around a franchise in SSBA.  The Hornets showed this to a T.   They got to be great through the draft, not through 1 player, but through a couple (Sampson, 'Nique, Stockton).  The Bucks didn't get to be a 54 win team by trading for 35 year olds, they built around Rex Mehta and made some good acquisitions to surround him with the right talent. 

The Warriors didn't build their 58 win team around 35 year old vets.  They drafted Don Collins and used their assets wisely to build a team around that.  It's a combination of moves, which includes drafting well, but isn't limited to only that.

Think about that.  3 of the top teams in SSBA are centered around players (Stockton and Nique, Mehta, Collins) who have never, EVER changed teams.  And you're telling me you can't build through the draft?   You're telling me the only way to win is by acquiring 35 year old vets?  Horse shit.

I don't want to talk shit on someone who's not here to defend himself, and who's left the league, but Ivan didn't have a clue how to do this.  He expected to be able to rebuild in one season.  He expected to be able to do it all through the draft with young players.  His expectations were unrealistic, both in the NBA and SSBA.  And, quite frankly, he didn't know how to get complimentary players.

And we have had players instantly turn around franchises instantly.  It's rare, just like it is in the NBA.  For every LeBron there's 10 Eddy Curry's.  But we do have similar players, a la Michael Jordan.  But if you expect there to be 5 of them every draft, then your expectations are unrealistic.

But this notion that we ran him out of the league is absolute horse shit.

[SonicsGM]

Bods, I couldn't have said it better myself.

[NetsGM]

This is what really shows what he's arguing about:

I'll let others to enjoy in mediocricy buti'm not taking any part of it.

Obviously, not everyone's mediocre.  there were six 50 win teams (and 5 more within 2 games of 50 wins) last year, 2 of them winning 60 games.  Somebody's winning.  Not everybody is "enjoying their mediocrity". 

He completely contradicts himself as well.  He complains that he acquired all this young talent and it wasn't enough to win, then claims it's easy to build a winner.  He says that the golden age was when Yao Ming couldn't even win a championship, but then complains that there aren't players who can turn franchises around.

The bottom line is, teams HAVE won in this league (and are winning) building around young players.  Ivan was not able to do this.  That is his fault.  Getting high draft picks does not guarantee superstars or great teams, otherwise the Hawks would be better than the Spurs in real life.  The spurs, after all, haven't had a top 10 draft pick in the last 10 years.  The Hawks, on the other hand, have 5 top 10 picks from the last 4 years.

Someone should blame the NBA for the Hawks failure.

Cry me a fucking river. 

Ivan lost interest because Ivan wasn't able to build a winner.  He then wants to blame his lack of success on others.  That is all.  Nobody ran anybody out of the league.

[NetsGM]

Alright, this is my last post on the subject.

Another myth.  "Only 1-2 stars per draft, and they're all top picks".

first of all, not every NBA draft has 2 stars in it.  In fact, very few truly do.  If there were 5 stars per draft, they wouldn't be stars, because there'd be 60 "stars" in the league.  The term star and superstar is completely and utterly relative to the competition around you.

Second, let's look at some of these recent draftees that I would consider stars.

John Stockton averaged 17/10.5 last year with 3 steals per game.  He was drafted 5th.

Don Collins averaged 26.2 ppg last year.  He was drafted 23rd.

Ian Magloire averaged 17.3 ppg and 11.1 assists per game.  He was drafted 11th.

Mike Evans with 16.6 and 10.5.  Drafted 13th.  The year before that he averaged 25+ ppg and 10+ assists per game.  Find me the last player in the NBA to do that.

That guy on the timberwolves who's turning them around, the one who averaged 20.4 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 3.6 apg, 2.0 spg and shot 42.1% from the 3, in only his second year?  He was drafted 10th.

This notion that drafts are 1-2 players deep is another one of his claims that's absolute bull.

[RaptorsGM]

One of the main reasons Ivan left the league was because of the way he was being treated. I personally feel that the responsibility goes to the rest of us. Anyone who disagrees, feel free to. And if it helps you sleep at night, feel free to post lengthy diatribes about how poor of a GM Ivan was. Either way, I'd rather just get on with fa day 5 and training camp.

[WizardsGM]

If a person who claims to be a mature adult cannot have constructive arguments and gets fed up because of it, I dont take any responsibility in that. If a person STARTS every argument by PURPOSELY stirring the pot that he knows will get argumentative posts in his direction, I dont have any sympathy for him, nor do I feel bad for taking part.

[NetsGM]

If a person who claims to be a mature adult cannot have constructive arguments and gets fed up because of it, I dont take any responsibility in that. If a person STARTS every argument by PURPOSELY stirring the pot that he knows will get argumentative posts in his direction, I dont have any sympathy for him, nor do I feel bad for taking part.

ding ding ding.

One of the main reasons Ivan left the league was because of the way he was being treated

Ivan started every one of his debates.  He's the one who constantly criticized how the league was run.  He's the one who started the debates.

And if it helps you sleep at night, feel free to post lengthy diatribes about how poor of a GM Ivan was

Once again, I am defending the league against his criticisms.  If Ivan comes out and says "this league sucks", am I NOT supposed to argue why he's wrong?  Am I just supposed to go "yes Ivan, you're not winning because the league sucks, you're right"?

Ivan took every chance he could to criticize the league.  And he's now going to claim about the way he was treated?

My post(s) were not lengthy diatribes about how poor of a GM Ivan was.  My posts were were discussions about why he was wrong.  In fact, the vast majority of my posts had nothing to do with Ivan, but about the youth being brought into the league.

But hey, if it makes you feel better to put blame on Ivan's leaving on others and not Ivan himself, feel free to.

[RaptorsGM]

hahaha


Nice "I know you are but what am I" argument tactics.

[NetsGM]

Nice "I know you are but what am I" argument tactics.

More of "I'll show you the fallacy in your argument by using it against you".

I've directly addressed every one of his issues.  You're the one who seems to be taking bits and pieces of my posts and using it to attack me, for some reason.

[RaptorsGM]

I'm not attacking you, I thought your last argument was rather weak, you basically took what I said and turned it around on me.

Anyway, I'm always going to disagree with this. I hate how in SSBA we apparently can't have opinions, everything is taken as pure fact, and people continually are attacked because their opinion isn't shared. I believe that is the true reason Ivan is around anymore. And I think after all these years and seasons and everything together, it's a damn shame it has to be like that. That's my opinion.

[NetsGM]

I'm not attacking you, I thought your last argument was rather weak, you basically took what I said and turned it around on me.

As I said, I was showing the holes i your argument by using it against you.  And I think it worked rather well, actually.

I hate how in SSBA we apparently can't have opinions, everything is taken as pure fact, and people continually are attacked because their opinion isn't shared. I believe that is the true reason Ivan is around anymore. And I think after all these years and seasons and everything together, it's a damn shame it has to be like that. That's my opinion.

I don't think you have any thing to base this off of, and you haven't given any examples of it.  This is a league that's continually morphing, changing its rules, and bending to the wishes of the GM's.  Ivan was never attacked because his opinion wasn't shared.