Training Camp

[PacersGM]

the 20th pick improved ... really i can´t see any iimprovement of this year 20th pick

[NetsGM]

I think what usually happens is people (teams and players) who have "amazing" training camps, their guys usually don't improve as much as they think.  If a  guy moves up to A- handling, he's really just barely better than a B+.  But all they see is A-.  Then next year they dropped very slightly, but it's enough to move them down to a B+, and they get all pissed because of their "terrible" training camp.

It's like Mason Mercer going up 5 his first TC, then down 3 (i think), then back up.  or Geiger going up 5, then down 3.

[GoldenStateGM]

And your team did much better then you are saying...

Curry dropped 1
Kaman up 1
Big Al up 2
Jonny up 2
Lenard up 1
Vlad even
Darko up 1
Ratliff up 1
Geiger down 3
Van Exel down 2
Snow even
Rocky down 1

I would say overall your team improved, probably just not the way you wanted...  Major improvement to your big man core, and some damage to your guards....

[CelticsGM]

You are probably right here, I put too much in that. But at the same time, this IS a rating based system and you make your offers and trades based on production AND ratings. And if the ratings are worse this decreases the value of your guy (who cares that Strong put up pretty good numbers last year - with these ratings he is of very low value in trade talks)

And with a bunch of pot A (2) and pot B (9) guys I did not expect the second below average TC (winning on 12 ratings, losing on 15) in a row, sure, so this rant comes out of frustration and shattered hope too ...  


And please, dear fellows, I do not want to start overanalyzing this whole stuff. As much as I appreciate the kind words, I don't see everything as bad as it may sound. I may be a "young" GM, but I understand the dynamics pretty well. I believe the Celtics will do good this year and probably surprise a few people along the way ...

[NetsGM]

But at the same time, this IS a rating based system and you make your offers and trades based on production AND ratings. And if the ratings are worse this decreases the value of your guy (who cares that Strong put up pretty good numbers last year - with these ratings he is of very low value in trade talks)

Yes and no.  It's a game based on the numerical ratings of 15 categories (plus 2 for potential).  Not a game based on the alphabetical representation of 5 categories.

These alphabetial representations are very, very fickle.

That's why, outside of the draft (when you have no statistics to base on), you should probably take statistics and ratings pretty evenly when evaluating a player.  With statistics you can try to figure out what the ratings don't tell you.

Like Pettit for example.  An A- defender last year, so I figured there would be pluses and minuses.  His steals stayed the same since he was a B+ defender, so I know he didn't change there.  But when tracking how opponent SG's did against him, I found that the opposing sg shot a fairly decent percentage against him.  But I also found that the opposing SG didn't rack up very many assists.

So what did I deduce?  he stayed about the same in steals, improved in denying dribble penetration, but still wasn't a very good perimeter defender in sticking with his man.

Stats + Ratings tell you the most about a player.  Using only one of the two leaves a lot unknown.

At some point last year I had a serious interest in Baron Davis.  Went through, and put EVERY raptors opponents game into a spreadsheet.  And this ultimately led me to my decision on how heavily to persue Baron.

[CavsGM]

Bods, could you provide us with a link of the team rosters as of right before training camp? This was very useful before, as I checked up on it frequently throughout the season when involved in trade talks.

[CelticsGM]

...
Went through, and put EVERY raptors opponents game into a spreadsheet.  And this ultimately led me to my decision on how heavily to persue Baron.

I do basically the evaluation of players in a similar manner but of course - thats an advantage you have - I have no access to the real ratings behind the letters (So looking at that A- defense, I can only guess from steals, blocks, opponents numbers, if this means he's good on perimeter D, drive D, post D and so on).

And I think even though I can see behind those letters a trading partner probably can't - which makes it somewhat difficult to trade him a player where the ratings are temporarily down ...  

[CelticsGM]

Bods, could you provide us with a link of the team rosters as of right before training camp? This was very useful before, as I checked up on it frequently throughout the season when involved in trade talks.

It would probably be a good idea to provide my color coded excel sheet (just the TC changes of course, the rest involved too much work to be NOT considered top secret), so if there is some interest, bods just has to offer some file space ...

[NetsGM]

I do basically the evaluation of players in a similar manner but of course - thats an advantage you have - I have no access to the real ratings behind the letters (So looking at that A- defense, I can only guess from steals, blocks, opponents numbers, if this means he's good on perimeter D, drive D, post D and so on).

Erm...I wouldn't, ever, check the real ratings of a player.  I think that's synonomous with cheating.  Not only do i get the "advantage" of knowing exactly what a player's good and bad at (which, IMO, would take half the fun out of this), but I could also see real and scouted potential.  No, I do not check the numerical ratings of players.  I do the same thing you do, check the steals, blocks, and opponents numbers.

And I think even though I can see behind those letters a trading partner probably can't - which makes it somewhat difficult to trade him a player where the ratings are temporarily down ...

Buy high, sell low.  If you know your player is playing at a better rate than his alphabetical ratings indicate, don't trade him.  Likewise, if you know a trading partner has a player performing better than his ratings indicate, but he hasn't taken the time to really look into it, then you should have the ability to fleece him in a trade.  It works both ways.

[CavsGM]

Last year he just gave us that link to the rosters prior to camp, and it turned out very helpful. Because nobody can memorize how every player in the entire league improved, you can use it to refresh your memory a little bit on a certain player, and how he had performed in the past TC.

[NetsGM]

Bods, could you provide us with a link of the team rosters as of right before training camp? This was very useful before, as I checked up on it frequently throughout the season when involved in trade talks.

I could do that.  Or Celtics could provide his excel sheet (I don't have an excel sheet this year, was too lazy).  Either way.

Sometimes players won't want to give up the work they've done.  Competitive advantage.  But if Celtics wants to, he can send them to me (dbodner [at] phillyarena [dot] net).  If not, I'll post the pre-tc ratings when I get home.

[NetsGM]

Here, I think this is the right save:
http://ssba.phillyarena.net/files/2008tc/

[CavsGM]

Yes, that's it. Thanks.

[GoldenStateGM]

Takes all the fun out of my database

[NetsGM]

*NOTE*

Any post from kingsgm which simply states (something to the effect of) "damn, this tc sucks", will be deleted, since we've all heard this 10x or more in the last 24 hours.

Need to save database space, you know.