Sim 7 Discussion

[BullsGM-old]

My team sucks without Pierce.  But one thing has come out good from this, Griffin CAN play SF in this league.  He put up great numbers playin the 3 last sim.  I didn't analyse all the indepth stats like opponents FG% on him, but all his averages went up last sim

[GoldenStateGM]

Griffin at SF?
Wow, that is a big SF

[BucksGM]

before the season begins, I'd look at the draft file. if the top of the draft is terrible, like these past 2 years, edit a few players to make top prospects. Actually make players that teams can build around.

An instant superstar almost never comes straight out of the draft, and I don't see anything wrong with the top of either draft.  English is already putting up 13/8, there are a number of double double centers waiting to happen from the draft, and we haven't even given them time to progress.  

We've already speculated that Gatling could become the next AI.  But didn't it take time for AI to become AI too?  And for every AI hasn't there been a Harold Miner?

Basically, I don't think the draft is doing what it's supposed to do, which is give the terrible teams a chance to get a franchise player (not every year, but at least an all-star).

Any body in this draft look like a player that can turn a franchise around?

The last player to turn a franchise around in Year 1 was Tim Duncan, and he joined a core that had won 60 games two years before they drafted him.

If a team wants to rebuild, clear cap space and do something in free agency, or stock up on picks or make a trade.  What's the point in making sure there are Ferries and Petits in every draft?

Besides the points I just made, I think it's unfair to start altering attributes to ensure all stars or superstars for the following reasons:

#1 - How do you determine how many per year?
#2 - How do you determine which ones?
#3 - Wouldn't it be necessary to make an all star at all 5 positions just to be fair?

[PacersGM]

another point is that a double double as a rookie isn´t bad at all.
we all agree that this league is getting better and better every year and more competitive.
So if you edit rookies to the point that they should be all stars or even franchise player, you will have to start with ratings like mercer.
Mercer should be the exception.
Every TC will give everybody the chance to develop the next superstar.

And Kundla is a good example that in every draft there will be someone spezial.

[HawksGM]

i don't see a problem with altering the draft files, i see first hand how not every great draft prospect becomes a superstar...Tanner got worse both TC's and you guys talking about Kundla, he only averages 9.3 a game, so basically what I'm saying  is that he can make a player good by altering but dabods can't control what that player does after that, if he makes a guy w/A potential he could be end up getting worse like Tanner or he could become amazing like Petit nobody can control that...and the players in this draft, there are 4 worth taking in the top 10 IMO, there isn't too many good players but that's just me

[NetsGM]

The last player to turn a franchise around in Year 1 was Tim Duncan, and he joined a core that had won 60 games two years before they drafted him.

I'm not talking about an instant contender.  But, IMO, none of these players can turn a team around in future years.  

(and what double double big men?  All of the pf's/c's with any kind of offensive skill have C+ or worse rebounding numbers).

This draft is terrible with guys who can play now.  In the NBA, there are always guys who can step in and help a team (last year with Gordon, Emeka and Howard, the previous year Carmelo, Wade, LeBron and Bosh all made significant contributions.  etc).

Like I said, Shabinger is terrible offenisvely and defensively.  Garrett Ward couldn't find the hole if you put it in front of his nose.  For a PF, George Boykins can't score, defend or rebound.  Chase Russell isn't good at anything, right now a young tim thomas (sim, not real life).  Patrick Gatling might be one of the best, but he's a sg without the defense or height to contribute, and a pg that can't handle the ball or shoot from the outside.  Alvin Zollner can't handle the ball, or score.  Ivan Strong couldn't defend a lamp post.  Anybody excited about Kareem Longley?

And I'm listed the guys who are the most ready to play.  None of them are really ready to make an impact.  There are a lot of people this year going to be banking on potential.  

Maybe some guys value potential a little more than me.  At this point, that's all you're relying on with these scrubs.  But if you ask me, three sim years down the line, there isn't going to be anybody who turned a team around through this draft.  And that's worrisome.

Build a team through free agency?  Good luck with that, with a terrible win rating and very little top prospects entering free agency to begin with.  Sonics got lucky this year, because of a slip-up by my part.  In my experience with these leagues, that's the exception, not the norm.

[NetsGM]

another point is that a double double as a rookie isn´t bad at all.

And there isn't a guy averaging a double-double as a rookie this year.  Closest guy is Harpring (10 pts, 9.4 boards) who was 5th pick and is shooting 40%.

Mercer should be the exception.

Obviously.

But now we're going 2 years where there isn't anything even remotely resembling a mercer.

Not every player in every draft is a project.  I didn't think people would forget, only one year removed from what LeBron, Carmelo and Wade (and when he got the time, Bosh) and even TJ Ford accomplished walking into the league.

[GoldenStateGM]

And there isn't a guy averaging a double-double as a rookie this year.  Closest guy is Harpring (10 pts, 9.4 boards) who was 5th pick and is shooting 40%.

But now we're going 2 years where there isn't anything even remotely resembling a mercer.

Not every player in every draft is a project.  I didn't think people would forget, only one year removed from what LeBron, Carmelo and Wade (and when he got the time, Bosh) and even TJ Ford accomplished walking into the league.

Chase Hoiberg is averaging a double double. 12 and 10 in 30 mpg.
Mercer has been in the league two years...  So how can you say there isn't anything resembling a Mercer yet.
And, personally, I think English is better then Mercer, or will be in a TC or two.
Lebron, Carmelo, Wade, and Bosh is one the best draft classes of the last 10 years.  Using them as a comparison for an average draft is unfair.

Why the draft's have been so point guard heavy is a mystery, one that should be addressed, imo...  3 pg heavy drafts in a row is not right.

But also, how many players in the real draft come into the league as good defenders?  Not many.  Defense is usually a skill that is learned and improved in the NBA...

Plus, we are all spoiled by the defense's we have.  Half of us here would not start a player with a B defense (guilty right here), even though every NBA team but the Pistons has a below average defender somewhere in their lineup.

Oh, and Kundla averaging only 9.3 points....  he is a non-option, but if his A potential holds true, he could be the next McGrady or Kobe.

[RaptorsGM]

I still agree with the Nets.

The teams that are at the head of the lottery are going to stay there without trades, because the players coming in via the draft just aren't good enough.

[NetsGM]

Chase Hoiberg is averaging a double double. 12 and 10 in 30 mpg.

You're right.  I loaded up the old save I had on my laptop which was from 2 sims ago.

Mercer has been in the league two years... So how can you say there isn't anything resembling a Mercer yet.

Talking about impact his rookie year.  That's what made that years draft interesting.  Not necessarily the stars, but you had to make the choice of potential (Griffin) or ready to contribute (Ferry and Mercer).  Mercer you knew was a guy who would come in and contribute, but not improve much.

Lebron, Carmelo, Wade, and Bosh is one the best draft classes of the last 10 years. Using them as a comparison for an average draft is unfair

Not using them as a comparison.  I listed draft classes from the last 10 years.  I simply used them to say that players do come in and have an impact.

This year Okafor averaged 15/11 with nearly 2 blocks/game.  Ben Gordon with 15 pts off the bench.  Yao Ming averaged 13.5/8.5 as a rookie.  Amare 13.5 and 9.  Caron Butler 15.4/4.

The year before that Gasol averged 18/9.  Jason Richardson 15/4.

There are players that are ready to contribute immediately in drafts.  But not in these past 2.

[GoldenStateGM]

How long does it take to see how good a draft class is...
About three years, typically.
How long has our firts draft class been in the league...
2 years.
The draft is not about instant gratification.  It is a slow rebuilding process.

If, 2 years down the road, the computer generated draft classes have sucked, then maybe the drafts should be altered.  But, imo, not until 2 computer generated classes have come to maturity.  Only then can you tell about a draft class.

If the A potential players in this draft have 100 potential, and not 81, they will be incredible.

[NetsGM]

The draft is not about instant gratification. It is a slow rebuilding process.

I just showed you that there are players who can come in and make an immediate impact.  I can't remember a draft class where noone was able to score 14 ppg (with the exception of maybe that KMart/Mike Miller debacle).  And IMO next year we may not see a 13 ppg scorer either.

If, 2 years down the road, the computer generated draft classes have sucked, then maybe the drafts should be altered.

At that point it will be too late.  We'll have gone through 4 drafts.  Bad teams will have gotten worse.  And who knows how long people will want to stick with these bad teams.

[GoldenStateGM]

[
I just showed you that there are players who can come in and make an immediate impact.  I can't remember a draft class where noone was able to score 14 ppg (with the exception of maybe that KMart/Mike Miller debacle).  And IMO next year we may not see a 13 ppg scorer either.

because none of us are willing to start a defensive liability...
Evan Lo with the Suns is averaging 11 pts in 20 mpg...  if he averaged 30 mpg, and was even a 3rd option, he would be up to the 15-17 range.

Roberto Dickau, 13 mpg in 31 mpg, occasional option.

English, 14 ppg in 35 mpg (which is quite excellent scoring for a PG, I think Merece is the only one to ever break 20 ppg)

And for next year, the players have not been through TC yet.
That TC could make a huge difference.
Ivan Strong, if he goes up in TC, will score 15 ppg, if he is played significant minutes.
Gatling is already a 15 ppg player, and if his out or in goes up in TC, he could be up to 20 ppg.
Micah Hunter, if started, is a 15 ppg player.

Emeka, Wade, Carmelo, Lebron, Duncan, Yao, Gordon...  all were at worst 2nd options on offense when drafted.  And the only good defenders out of that group coming into the draft were Emeka and Duncan.  The rest were all average defenders, or below average (cough, Carmello, cough)

[SpursGM-old]

I think that you should evelauate the drafts a little deeper.  The 2006 draft was 16 attributes better than the 2007 class.  That's taking into account the entire 58 players.  However what made the 2006 draft so memorable was the top 10 players.

Comparing the drafts the top 10 in 2006 was 25 attributes better than the 2007 draft.  But the 2007 class was 7 attributes better in the 11-29 spots.  The 2007 second round was also slightly better than the 2006 class.

2007 might not have had the stars that immediately helped their teams but had better depth and more players that given time should develop.  Also the potential in the 2006 draft had 8 A, 9 B, 5 C, 6 D and 1 F.  For 2007 the breakdown was 12 A, 6 B, 5 C, 4 D, 2 F.

IMO it is too early to judge the success of the players and the drafts.  From my analysis it appears that for the top 20 the 2008 draft will be closer to the 2006 than the 2007 class.  It just doesn't have that 2 or 3 potential superstars that the first draft had.

[NetsGM]

The rest were all average defenders, or below average (cough, Carmello, cough)

First, not all players go up when made an option.

Second, none of these defenders are even average.  They're terrible.  English and Dickau are B- defenders.  13 ppg scorers with B- defense are not my idea of good players.

but hey, if nobody wants the drafts, I'll leave them untouched.  But in 3-4 years, I'm sure I'll be saying I told you so.