SSBA

In the age of soundbites, I want to say that the most poignant moment for me was when one of the train passengers was asked about his feelings regarding the terrorists. He said "I pity them." That really struck me, especially since my own feeling was simply rage.

And the fact is was timed to occur during the G8...  just disgusting.

A meeting to attempt to help the world (the environment, poverty in Africa) and you schedule an attack during that???  Unbelievable.

I was shocked, I woke up and turned it to ESPN like every morning and the London attacks were on the bottom line, so I turned it to CNN and it makes me sick.  The death toll just increased to 40 and I'm not sure what damage to the actual subway system but I'm guessing that will death toll will triple

Absolutely.

there is never a right timing or a explaination for terror. i can´t accept it or tolerate it.

Sorry man, i strongly disagree on that. G8 is not here to help the environment, poverty in Africa etc, don't be naive. That same nations and multi national companies are the most responsible for poverty itself. Large riots, anarchist and other movements (who i welcome with all my heart) are protesting for the same reason (G8 hypocrisy).

Deleted my own post...

Do not wish to get into a political discussion, especially on a day when a tragedy like the London attacks have occurred.

But unlike G8, they're not causing the problems. They are only reaction to an unfairness, economy blackmails, injustices etc which is all caused by the very same G8.

That's complete and utter horseshit.

Do you have any other argument? :?

I don't think one's needed.

Go live in Isreal/Palestine and tell me that terrorism isn't a serious problem.  Ask one of the relatives of people killed in terrorism, at any point in the world, and ask if it's a problem.

Terrorism is never justifiable.  Ever.  It doesn't solve, help solve, or work towards solving anything.  It's an unjustifiable loss of life, and to say it's not a  problem is complete and utter horseshit.

But yes, we know, all of the worlds problems can be attributed to wealthy nations.  There's no personal responsibility in this world, it's much easier to blame someone else.

I think you should read my post again, who's talking about terrorism?

All i'm sayin is that G8 doesn't give a shit about poverty in Africa, wars, enviromenet etc. They only care about profit. If you think diferent, that's your problem. Or illusion.

Second, you mentioned so i'll say this: Terrorism. Is it unjustifiable? All i can say is that decent and fair states should have no fear of terrorism. Only the states with the blood on the there hands (sorry that includes US also, England and Israel). The main question is NOT how to fight against terrorism (which is actually like a cancer, kill one cell it spreads to another), it's what's the cause of terrorism, the main root of the problem!

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TERRORIST ATTACKS!  You specifically said riots (not protests, riots).  By definition, Anarchy is the lack of a government.  To get to anarchy, you need to overthrow a government.  To overthrow a government, you need a war and terroristic tactics.

As for your "blood on your hands" argument.  Bullshit.  None of the people who died today had blood on their hands.  The way to make change is not through bloodshed of innocent civilians.  That will always cause more problems than it solves.  You don't fix things by breaking more.

And if you feel that none of the G8 nations are at all about poverty, then I'm sorry you live in the world in which you do.  The world is not that bleak.  These nations do have charitable causes, and do do good in the world.  That's not to say that they're perfect, no nation (democratic, republic, fanatical or anarchist) is.

So the way to prevent terrorism is to make everyone like you and agree with everything you do?  Good luck with that.  Nothing's ever that black and white.  You go help out the Saudi's and you get people like Bin Laden who are mad that you didn't help rebuild.  That's actually one of his main beefs with the US, one of the reasons he started his holy war.  Not because we went over there in the first place, not for reasons we went over there, but because he felt we didn't do enough to help in the reconstruction.

You'll always have factions that are pissed off at you.  Not holding terrorists responsible would facilitate this.

Sorry, i'm just tired of all this selective humanity and solidarity. Everytime someone dies in New York, Tel Aviv or London it's a major tragedy and disaster while no one gives a shit over thousands of Palestine children who were killed by Isrealian bullets or Cecenian people getting killed by Russians on daly basis. And no one cares only because they're poor. That's all.

You know what, nevermind.  i'm sorry I ever got into this, and should have taken GoldenState's cue, especially with a self-proclaimed Anarchist supporter.

Yes, it's all about money.  And yes, you know enough about me to know who I care about and why I care about them.

Friggin blowhard.

Jesus, what's your problem? I didn't say one word about you, i was talking in general...oh dear.

And what makes me a blowhard?? :? Cause i'm posting nonsense when i'm drunk?? I'm just being honest, that's all. :?

The American view is different then alot of other views...

Many countries demand that the US intervene in situations, and then complain about it after the US does intervene.

The United States, both government and corporations, give billions of US dollars every year to other countries in foreign aid.  And then other countries complain that the US does not give enough.  No thanks, no appreciation...  just not enough was given.

And yet, the only thing most other countries have ever done for the United States is take jobs out of the country.  Americans are sick of being construed as evil by others...

Wow, I just woke up and learned about the attacks through the thread.  I'm watching CNN, can someone recap how the attacks happened?

4 bombs wereapparently planted, 3 on the subway, and one on a double decker bus.  The bombs went off during rush hour.  Here is the news on CNN....

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/07/london.tube/index.html

From the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4661059.stm

I understand your point and you're mostly right. I am still thankfull for Clinton administration for attacking Serbia cause that was the only thing that stopped Serbian dictator Slobodan Milosevic to continue blood spilling.

But there are also wars, like Vietnam or the latest one in Iraq that are clearly wrong.

But you're right, it's not a day to talk about politics.

Kings - you really need to stop using alcohol as an excuse.


And those attacks on London make me absolotuly sick. Sometimes at night I dream about going around and killing every terrorist I see. Great dreams.

As the U.S. carries on its legitimate war on terrorism (how we may be going about it or the reasons we say we do things may not be so legitimate), I wonder whether these attacks show the extreme failure of the U.S.'s campaign, that is, fueling terrorism more than eliminating it. What I wonder is whether or not these attacks would have still occurred had the U.S. not gone to Iraq and had not been such narrow-minded assholes about it.

Jazz, you're right on the mark. I wanted to say that but guys around here would probably kick me out of the league. Thanks

And Raptors, please, you're worst then me even when you're sober.

Worse than you? You're annoying as hell and your just as ignorant. You refuse to listen to any tip of advice that anyone gives you. For some reason you think your team should be perfect, but when it's not, you just whine about it instead of doing anything about it.

Worse than you? Hardly. Sometimes I run my mouth off, and I almost always apologize for it.

I know this is pretty harsh, and Nets feel free to delete my post if you think this is out of line. I'm just a little sick of the Kings saying stupid shit like G8 is causing problems, terrorist attacks are caused because the states getting attcked aren't "decent and fair", and stuff like that. And then blaming it on failure to learn english (which might be the case, I can't argue that) or alcohol (which is a stupid argument).

Thats all I have to say about that.

What he said is completely different than being a self proclaimed anarchist supporter and saying that terrorism isn't a problem.

Most of us here americans are against bush and think iraq is wrong.

Maybe those specific countries would not have been targeted, but someone would have been...
These folks are religious fanatics and terrorists...  And the only way they know how to operate is through the manipulation of fear.  

Afghanistan was enough to set the terrorists off...  And there are very few Americans who think that invasion was wrong.

The Iraq invasion is a whole new story.  Opinions vary on that one a great deal.

Bods first of all stop putting words in my mouth. I've never said that terrorism is not a problem, i just have a diferent point of view. Before i judge anyone i'm looking for the causes first, for the roots of evil.

Why do people place bombs? Why do they act like they act? What makes them suicidal terrorist?? Just because they are crazy?? Just because they are religious fanaticals?? Beacuse they have diferent faith? NO, things are not that simple.

If someone comes to your state, or to your city of Philly for that matter, and start bombard you and after that they exploit all of your natural resources etc. And they are more powerfull in every single way (military, technologicaly, economicaly etc). Are you 100% sure you would not do the same? That there's absolutely no way you would act like them? You wanna tell me if someone burns your house to the ground and kills your parents, brothers and sisters, that the idea of placing a bomb in your enemy's state would never come to your mind? If not, alright then, but then you must be  a saint.

All i'm saying is that i'm sick of this one sided judgment. Everyone is pretending blind now! I mean just look at that god damn Bush, how dares he to come to England after that attack when he's the main fucking cause for that!! He's the one who forced Blair to send his troops to Iraq (US will continue to blackmail England as long as this administration is in charge, cause you saved England's asses in World War 2 and Bush will exploit that the most he can). The whole Europe will soon be in flames cause of that idiot and his " war on terrorism" agenda!

And yes, innocent people died. Always innocent people dies. That's how it goes in the war. During Croatia's war for independency one of my friend lost his leg and another was killed by a sniper. And we were 15 at that time. We were just a kids and we were innocent too. But have anyone on the Western hemisfere cared about that? Did they give a shit about that? Off course not. There was no " great humanity crises", no " major tragedy etc" ...We were just a " colateral damage " how they like to say (btw that same England wanted to put a ban on weapon import for Croatia, they wanted us to be with absolutely no defense cause they were supporting Slobodan Milosevic, one of the biggest buchers since World War 2, until the very end. If it wasn't for the Germany, Austria, Vatican and US later on i would probably be dead now or in exile).

And finally, "Anarchist supporter"...oh God...man this is so stupid i can't even explain that. Complete missunderstood, again my language barrier caused that and i've said something that may sounded like that. All i wanted to say is that i support any civilian movement against multi national corporations, army etc. Nothing more. I look at the protests against G8 the same way i feel about Hippi movement in that Vietnamee era. With simpathy, nothing more.


- Your "potential terrorist" KingsGM

Raptors. I already told you i'm tired of your hipocrisy. Don't talk to me and i won't talk to you.

End of conversation.

 :tup:  

You're right. If you're not willing to talk it out like a man, it is end of conversation.

I really haven't been a hypocrit at all, and I'm not sure where you are getting this from. I've never been a fan of the KingsGM, and I'm pretty sure I've held fast to that.

"Don't talk to me and i won't talk to you." - well, I'm pretty sure things like that shouldn't happen in a sim league, but if that's how you want it, fine by me.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

now I don't want to be the voice of reason here, but isn't that not only getting out of hands but DOESN'T BELONG HERE at all. Last I checked, this is still a Basketball game we all love ...

So bods, just to do us all a favor, please lock this topic right here, as I guess we all agree that the London bombing was a terrible thing and the rest can be discussed in numerous political forums !

and one more thing: since I see Basketball as a thing free of nationality and political borders spanning the whole world I'm a little bit shocked that expressing opinions, even political ones, can get you in danger of getting kicked out of a GAME like SSBA.

There are things most non-US people see vastly different then US citizens because they can look in from the outside and get a different education for that matter - but since the US declaration of independence values freedom of speech (and I'm sure freedom of opinion as well) very high, I don't think it can be a problem being of different opinion at all ...


... at least I hope so.  :shock:

I could lock this thread - but instead I'm going to delete any posts that don't have anything to do with the topic.

And I don't think the Kings was ever in any danger of getting kicked out - those we're his words.

Kings, if you have anything more to say to me, you're welcome to PM me.

Actually, you know what - forget it. It's not up to me to decide which posts stay and which posts go.

I'll leave that for Bods if he sees fit.

thats a fair offer

i have very strong opinions about these discussed things as well but I don't want to ruin something thats working as fine as this SSBA league with getting a political discussion killing any social relationship in here !

:D

Believe me, I have much different politcal views than Americans. But actually, I share many of the views that Warriors and Nets have shown in this thread. They are my knid of Americans.

Notice how I've stayed out of this political debate all togheter :) Like you, I know how heated things can get, and I'd rather not get into it.

And believe ME that I'm aware that there is no such thing as THE AMERICANS. All kind of political opinions are represented there too, and I know that a great percantage of US citizens are not too happy either how things develop in the US and the world.

And despite understanding your (US based) point of view, being european (but actually seeing myself as a "Terranian") I share a lot of views with KingsGM, probably just not at this extreme level and probably too polite sometimes to offend someone ...

... and that's all I'm willing to add to this political discussion here.  :wink:


I WANNA PLAY SOME BALL NOW AND DO GREAT TRADES WITH EVERYONE IN HERE  :twisted:
(btw, is Kiri available?)

And what natural resources, per se, are we exploiting?  Certainly not oil.  I'm so sick of this argument.   Iraq might have been an overzealous attack to get Saddam out of power, but it had nothing to do with oil.  The US hasn't seen a drop of it.  Our solution to fix the oil crisis has been to drain natural wildlife.



There's a difference between innocent people dying during a war, and innocent people being targetted.  That's the difference you're apparently failing to see.

There are perfectly legitimate reasons for war.  And innocent civilians will die because of that.  But there is never justification for innocent civilians to be targeted.  

Al Qaeda are not freedom fighters fighting for world peace.  They're a dispacable organization who have used terroristic tactics for multiple causes.  There's no justification for their actions.  There's no justification for buses or trains to be blown up.  

And they're not just here because of Bush.  There'd be terrorists, probably arguing over different causes, no matter what.  

Yes, they're crazy.

Someone show this man Nelson Mandela, Mahatma Gandhi or Martin Luther King.  3 people who have achieved 10x the change that these assholes have.

well this is in the off-topic discussion, and basketball is definately an international affair replete with all of our wonderful politics. (take Yao Ming as an example) but there's no excuse for things to get so heated and personal...this is why the world's in the mess that it is in in the first place.

1. About that qoute of mine where i said " they're not causing problems " i was thinking about protests, not terrorists. Read again.

2. US is not interested in oil?  :rrofl:  :rrofl:  :rrofl:  Jesus Christ Almighty...alright, alright, Texas loby with their chief in charge George W. Bush are not interested in oil whatsoever. Haha, man this is joke of the year.

3. Tell me just this. How come the terrorist atacks on Europe comes so often after the election of Bush? Europe rarely had troubles in the past with terorists (I'm not talking about IRA, only muslims state counts here). It's one wierd concidence, don't you think? Do you have any explanation for this?

We were talking about terrorists in that thread the entire time.  Protestors were not brought up before you.  We were talking about Riots or Protestors in the post you quoted.  If you're changing the subject, you need to specify that.



Not what I said at all.  I said that Bush didn't invade Iraq because of oil.  Bush may be stupid, but his advisors aren't.  They know the reaction OPEC would give them if we raided oil.



Um...there were a slew of terroristic attacks during the 90's.  Maybe you might want to go back and check that.

In fact, 9/11 was organized long before Bush even began running for office.

I am not talking about US soil. I'm talking about Europe.

We had no troubles with muslim terrorists what so ever. All of terrorist attacks took place in their own states (Baski in Spain, IRA in England and Ireland, Cecenian Army in Russia etc.) Very, very rarely ( i can't even recall it) terorists attacked someone other. Everything was happening within their own states. But now cause of US little adventure in Iraq, we had multiple attacks in the states who stood beside Bush (Spain, England) and on the list are others who also went to Iraq (Italy, Poland i think etc). Sorry i find that strange...

BTW, some of the misunderstandings here might have been due to a communications barrier.  And I'll accept that. But talking about acceptings protests invokes a completely different reaction from me than talking about accepting anarchy and riots.  

Protesting is something I support completely. No matter if I agree with a cause or not, you have a right to protest and a right to have your voices heard (within reason, of course.  I've seen protestors standing in streets,  blocking off entire sections of cities.  I've then seen ambulances unable to carry people in critical need beyond these protestors.  Having a right to protest doesn't give you the right to deny other people their god given rights).  And this is still alive and true in America.  I wouldn't want it any other way.

Anarchy and rioting are completely different.  Targeting of civilians is completely and utterly, unequiovocally wrong.

If you got your terms confused, dictionary.com.  I realize you speak a different language, and I could never begin to converse with you in your native tongue.  But if you're going to talk about a sensitive subject, don't use words that you don't know what meanings they ultimately have.  It's fine to be unsure when we're talking about basketball.  But not when we're talking about the loss of life.

And believe it or not, we do care when people in impoverished nations suffer.  I can't tell you the reactions I saw at Live 8, and the following concert on Sunday.  These people at these concerts were not benefitting in any other way, neither the performers nor the audience.  It was a spectacle, and something I was proud to be a part of.

My family, my great grandmother and grandmother, lived in Hungary during World War II.  We're christian, and were not directly prosecuted, but they saw the suffering caused by tyrants.  After the onset of war, they fled Hungary to come here, and it was not easy.  Borders were blocked, they were essentially smuggled over here.  Not all of them made it.  Innocent civilians, with no money, killed.  My girlfriend of 3 years is Jewish (technically, heh.  She's about as Jewish as I am Catholic, meaning neither of us practice nor particularly strong in faith, just raised in those customs).  She has family in Isreal.  Family killed by terrorists.  She's going over there this winter, and I'm scared out of my mind.  Terrorism has affected me.  Living in impoverished countries has affected me.  And I do care, as do most Americans.

Blanket statements about one nation, ethnicity, region or race never hold true.  Most of what you know about "Americans" stems from the media, their portrayal of our leaders, and our leaders actions.  Not the other 250+ thousand citizens.  Just as I do of foreign nations.  But we know very little.  And a lack of knowing is what leads to fear/separation of people.  Which leads to hatred.  Which breads terrorism.

We're all the f'in same.  And it's a shame nobody notices that.

Yes i know our misunderstandings in that first post of mine caused all of this. I've noticed your reaction after i explained that to you, you calmed down. Off course i'm not supporting the world without some kind of goverment and the world of chaos. i didn't mean that way but it sounded like that. I though that riots and protest are the same thing. Now i see it's not.

And especially the part where i was saying that the people in protest are not the cause of the problem and you thought i was saying that about terrorists. Sorry, maybe i didn't specify the subject, i just thought it was obvious, nothing more.

I'm not caught in that media stereotype about " stupid Americans". I know there are alots of smart and decent Americans. After all i was raised on American rock music and NBA.

That's all.

Peace

Rioting usually involves violence, looting, mayhem and death.

Protesting usually involves people with signs and trying to get their voices heard and make changes.  Raise awareness.

They're slightly different ;)

Then how come he got re-elected? I know it is a matter of states and not a matter of the whole population, but still... I must say most people I know here in Europe were unhappy (read angry) when Bush was re-elected.

Hey Kings
I agree with many thought of you (though not all of them). But I needed to reply to this.
The US also came to help Belgium in WW2 big time. But that is no reason for Belgium to kiss Bush's ass. When Bush and the US asked Belgium to help them in certain ways in the Iraq war (flights, transportation, troups,...), Belgium refused to help them. US was definitaly not happy with that, but Belgium stood up for what they believed was not the right thing to do. And instead Blair just stated to kiss Bush's ass!

Well, only about 35% of the US population participates in presidential election.

His first election, he didn't even win a majority.

Just check out his approval ratings.  they're atrocious.

That 35% is sad. Of course many people are not eligible to vote. But there are many who are eligible and are not voting. So I guess that there are many people (of the ones that are against Bush) that did not vote. :S

Well, if you look at it demographically, it's generally the wealthier that are pro-republican (bush) and the poorer that are pro-democrat (the other party).  I'd say more republicans voted.

But really, we have no idea how the rest of the country would have voted.  But Bush is not a very popular president.

Well first of all we all know how the elections went. Let's say they were highly suspicious at least. There was numerous sources who indicated that there were alots of fake votes in Bush's favor.

Second, lots of people were really scared after 9 / 11.  Media manipulation was just horrible. Unseen to date. They scared the people (mostly the non - educated country folks) to the death for like 24 hours a day with all kinds of red codes, yellow codec etc. We all know if you repeat one lie 100 times it becames the truth. People voted for him out of fear...sadly.

I live in England and here is my one and only post on the matter.

#1) England, America and all the rest of the "good guys" need to stop getting involved in issues which have zero to do with us. It only has to rain somewhere for a couple of days and we send supplies and troops over. Good and respectable british citizens are dying abroad for a fight which has nothing to do with us.

The people we try to help do not even appreciate our efforts. Why die for them?

#2) This sort of terrorism is not political! A suicide bomber does not negotiate, does not put across a point of view, they simply take the lives of innocent people and attempt to project their own views onto people through fear.

#3) The G8 summitt is pointless. There is no way in hell that the debt of 3rd world countries will be erased. If it did we would lose all control over them and not be able to dictate their actions. Britain and America may preech about democracies but our foreign policies revolve around a dictatorship, our dictatorship of poorer poeples.

NOTE:
1- I do not support BNP, although some policies are valid.
2- I am not a racist
3- I am white and have scottish ancestors, so take my views as you please!

Rockets, I'm glad that finally someone agrees with me about that G8 matter. Thanks.

Who's the Guest? We haven't had one in months!  :)

Sorry that was me. I forgot to log in.

Oops did it again. Sorry!  :oops: