SSBA

Here's the deal. I'll, to the best of my ability, create ratings for the top players at each position in this year's NBA Draft, and compare then to the top players in our draft. Then we can get a sense of how our draft compares.

Top C's:

Our Draft: Jim Finley (18 ), 7'3, 307 lbs,  C C- C- A- C+ A
                      Ethan Fletcher (22), 6'11, 312 lbs,  B- C D+ B- C+ B

NBA Draft: Andrew Bogut (20), 7'0, 242 lbs, A- C- C+ B A- A
                        Channing Frye (22), 7'0, 248 lbs, B- C+ C+ B B+ B

--Clearly, these two big men in the NBA draft could have helped a team right away. Bogut IS that good, IMO. Those numbers for him look like 22/12 with decent defence. Frye would put up only about 12-15ppg, but 10 rpg and also decent defense.

--As for our draft, well, Finley is going to put up 10ppg if he's lucky, with 7rpg and excellent defence. Fletcher is looking at 11-13ppg with suspect defence and bad rebounding.

Obviously the NBA draft is much, much better.

Top PF's:

Our Draft: Ivan Strong (21), 6'10, 237 lbs,  B- B- C C C+ A
                       George Boykins (21), 6'10, 227 lbs, B C C- B- C+ A

NBA Draft:Charlie Villanueva (20), 6'11, 230lbs, B- B- B B- B A
                       Fran Vazquez (22), 6'10, 229 lbs, B- C B- B- B A

--Two more solid, solid contributors in the NBA draft. People will questions Villa's handles, but he is an amazing handler/passer for a big man. He also has a great outside shot. Now, neither of these guys are great defenders, but they both have the potential to get better.

--The two guys from our draft are also good players. Strong would have the same scoring abilities as Villa, so both would put up somewere around 15ppg. Strong is, however, a bad defender and bad rebounder. Boykins would not score as much, and is also a suspect defender and rebounder.

Overall, I'd rather have the guys from the NBA draft.

Top SF's:

Our Draft:Quincy Peters (20), 6'9, 247, C+ B- C+ B- C- B
                     Chase Russel (22), 6'8, 226, C B C+ B- C- A

NBA Draft: Marvin Williams (19), 6'9, 230, C B+ B B B A
                       Danny Granger (22), 6'8, 225, C+ B+ C- A- B- C

--Well, Marvin could be a star in our game. 20 ppg, 6apg, 6rpg with A potential. Granger isn't as likely to improve, But that defense and rebounding from a SF is excellent.

--As for our draft, I'm high on Russel and Peters, but neither plays good defence or rebounds well. Both are projects, whilst the NBA guys come in and contribute.

Overall, I'd take the NBA guys.

Top SG's:

Our Draft: Patrick Gatling (22), 6'2, 187, B+ C+ C+ B D B
                       Kareem Longley (22), 6'6, 214,  C+ B- C B C- B

NBA Draft: Gerald Green (18 ), 6'8, 200, B- A- B B C+ A
                        Martell Webster (18 ), 6'7, 235, B- B B C+ C+ B

--Gerald Green is going to be a star in the NBA, and I really hope he falls to the Raptors. I want to see this guy play. Green, in FBB would go for 20ppg, 6.5apg, 5rpg with that A potential. Webster is nothing great though. Not a good defender.

--As for our draft, Gatling has the chance to be a very good player, but C+ outside is weak from your starting SG. Can't rebound either. Longley has the size to be as good as Webster would be.

Overall, although it's closer, I'd rather the NBA guys.

Top PG's:

Our Draft: Gregory Schabinger (20), 6'3, 186, C B- B+ B- C A
                        Andy Miles (21), 6'2, 211, C- B- A- B- D- B

NBA Draft: Chris Paul (20), 5'11, 175, C A- B+ B+ D- B
                       Deron Williams (21), 6'3, 210, C+ B B B C+ C

--Here, in the NBA Draft, you have a guy in Paul that could be one of the top PG's in our league. I'm really high on him. Size and rebounding are big issues. With Williams, soild all-around, what you see is what you get.

--In our draft, both guys have the potential to be great, but as of now they don't score or defend very well.

Again, I'd rather have the NBA Draft guys.



What does all of this prove: Absolutly nothing. It was fun to create rankings for the NBA guys (although it took a hell of a long time). The point that I make is that there should be 4-5 guys at the top that can contribute for a team right away. In the NBA draft, you have that in Bogut, Williams, Paul, Green, Granger. Here, we really don't have that at all. That's why so many of the top picks get traded, I think. Well, hope you enjoy anyway.

Hate to say it, but the rankings you gave for the NBA draftees are way, way too high.

Which ones. Be Specific.

GREAT thread man.

I think alot of the ratings for the NBA players are just about right, a few things I would probably change: no way Granger is that good.  Although he has good length, he is not a B+ rebounder and his midrange game is decent for a SF so I would put his outside O at B, not B+

As for Marvin, is anything he should be a B-, B- or B, B- offensive player. Chris Paul should have A potential, Bogut should have B.  And lastly, Deron Williams' ratings are way too low, he's an underrated defender and cut alot of weight during the offseason.  In the Chicago camp he actually was timed quicker than Paul in lateral quicks, which was one of Deron's biggest weaknesses last year, his potential should be B and his handles (ability to pass) should be B+ if not A-

With the stats you gave Bogut, he is good for 22-25 ppg, 4-4.5 assists, and about 12 rebs per game...
I feel that is way too high, considering Shaq and Duncan had lesser stats their first years...
Charlie V, with a B ball handling, is the best ball handling PF automatically in the league.  Also the 3rd best outside shooting pf in the league, behind only Dirk and Odom.
Gerald Green is coming in the league as 25 ppg scorer, and is automatically a top 5 offensive SG...
I would say Chris Paul is about right, and Deron is actually underrated (he is a better dfender then Paul, imo)

Bulls, I missed the Gragner defense rating. Meant to have B-. I'm going to change it right now.

As for the other comments, most of what I have here is based on reading profiles on NBADraft.net.








Admittly, the profile on him seemed to be from last year. I watch Deron play maybe 5-6 times this season, and from what I saw, I would expect 12ppg, 8apg, 3.5topg from him. Which I think is pretty close to B B B. Of course, I'm just not as high on him as some are.

The knock on Bogut is his defense. And he WILL be 12rpg in the NBA. He's a board crashing machine.

I'm way higher on Green than must.

From what I've seen, Deron doesn't have the quickness to be a top defender (Bulls says otherwise, and he probably has a better inidcation than I do)

Well your first mistake is using nbadraft.net  :lol:   Seriously though, I don't see Bogut being an A potential guy, he's already refined in alot of his skills (passing, low post moves, overall bball IQ).  Bogut has potential, just not 'A' potential, he's not the next Hakeem or Sabonis.  As for Deron, you gotta give the guy B+ handles, his court vision is just amazing.

The Deron Williams of last year definetely did not have the lateral quicks to guard the faster PG's in the league but he got in real good shape, real fast.  I think he's down to 7% body fat now and as mentioned earlier, actually finished faster than Paul in lateral quicks.

With the stats you gave, Green is an All-Star his rookie year in our league, and ends up the best player ever in SSBA, with that A potential.

Bogut may be a 12 rpg player, but not in his first year.  And he will not be scoring 25 ppg, unless he is his teams primary and secondary option next year.  And with A potential, he will be the same offensive force as Duncan in 2 years...

I think you gave the players stats that they hope to attain, and not what they are now...

Greens ratings are about right, except maybe C+ outside instead of B- and his handles should be B- or C+.  I've only seen him play once but his shot mechanics/range ARE at an NBA level already.  And he can create his own shot as well, he has a mean first step and decent handles.  The A- outside/A potential is justified imo

As for Bogut, I think he'll average 10-11 or 12 boards next year, easily.

Bogut will go down as one of the best rebounders ever in the NBA.

Plus, I see him getting lots of shots next year.

As for Green, like I said, I'm very high on him. He's the Garret Petit of the NBA.

Well, I predict there is no way Green scores 25 ppg next year, and a B- A- player would do that.
I will give you a C A-, because he is supposed to have a great outside shot.  But I doubt very much he has any post game, especially when going against NBA players.
C+ handle max, and C+ defense, and C- Rebounding.
He is not capable of playing the point, so a C+ handle is the max he could really get.  He does not create that well fo others, and he is 18, so he will likely rack up turnovers, from inexperience.
As for defense, well, no high schooler came into the league as a great defender...  he has the ability to get better, but he will not be even average his first year.  And there is not a shooting guard in the league with C+ rebounding...  JRich is a great rebounding sg, and has a C rebounding.
But that is my opinion... A potential all the way, though.

Inside offense doesn't nessesarily mean low post play.  Green is a good slasher already, as mentioned he has a wicked first step.  I would give him C+ outside.  You're right B defense is probably a little high, its hard to gauge Green's defense, he didn't play much of it in high school, but then again he didn't need to, he dominated HS ball.  The fact he won't allow any other competition in his workouts makes it even harder to see where he's at defensively.  Realistically he could be anywhere from C to B.

And RapsGM, did I read your Bogut statement correctly?... You meant to say SSBA instead of NBA.. right?

Phew.  Thank god I didn't decide to do handmade drafts and put you in charge of creating the draft files.  There'd be 3 superstars on every team by the time you're done with it.

That's what happens in most leagues :)

Bogut is going to be great, but not a fantastic defender.

Villa, with those stats would put up like 12ppg, 10rpg, 5apg which I think is pretty close to what he would do in the NBA. His defense is bad too.

Williams is not going to score very much, or do anything that great, but he has potential.

I don't think Green would score 25ppg with B- A- stats. Petit is B A and he is only good for 25 on a team that lacks scoring. Mobley is a B- A- player who averages 12.5 on 44%. I would expect Green to get 15-18 next year, but he has the potential to be a great scorer.

As for Deron Williams, well, Nets, if you were going to make a point about how good I made these cats, why not use Paul as your example :)

Fact is, if Araujo is going to be a 30/15 guy, Bogut should be too :)

Erm...I'm 6th in the league in fg%.  Pace is low, that doesn't mean I can't score.



Because I forgot to copy and paste Paul.  :lol:

Yes, all the players you "made" have "flaws", but they all have A potential!!!!!

You just made 5 of the probable top 10 players in the league with that draft file.

And some of your non-main-category cats, let's take a look.  And these are all with no improvement from their A potential.  None at all.

Bogut: C+ handles.  There are only 3 C's in the entire league with C+ handles, none of them with a B or better scoring in either of the 2 scoring cats.  There is only one C in the league with the combination of A- or better inside scoring, C- or better outside scoring and A- or better rebounding (Yao).

Villy: B handles.  No PF's in the league with B handles.  Heck, there's only 1 SF in the league with B handles (Benjamin Piatkowski).

Gerald Green: C+ Rebounding.  No SG's in the league with C+ Rebounding.

Deron: No PG in the league with C+ Rebounding.

That's an amazing number of "tops for their positions" you have going there, and that's with Zero improvement in future years.  Not to mention their superior "main" categories.

We've got a bunch of KG's here.

So if that really is your opinion, where do these ratings then come from (which point to a potential superstar already) ?

Marvin Williams (19), 6'9, 230, C B+ B B B A

Isn't the classification "not doing anything great but has potential" a typical "C" rating with "A" potential ?

Everyone was rated high, but I guess my feelings are that more people should have higher ratings in our League.


Anyway, everyone is missing my point. My point is that the players entering the NBA Draft are SO MUCH BETTER than the players entering our drafts.

No, we see your point, but your argument is only as strong as the ratings you make up of the people you're comparing it to.  If your ratings are flawed, your argument loses credibility.

So you think the entire league is rated too low, on average?  Frankly, that doesn't matter.  Because a player's effectiveness is all relative.  So you should be making your "real nba player" ratings relative to the league we're in, not to your definition of what an A- inside scoring should indicate.

These last two drafts IMO (as I've said before), blow.  But I'm using that in relation to the players already in our league.  This, IMO, isn't an argument.  But an exercise to have fun.

But the only reason you feel that way is because you gave the NBA players such extremely high ratings.   :shock:

IMO the NBA draft & the SSBA draft are very similar.  The only sure bet is that Bogut is better than anyone listed on the SSBA draft.  But after the first pick the drafts are very close....the only difference being the position that is deep.

Well, why don't you pick out some specific ratings that are unjustified?

Bogut's handles should be what, a C?

Villa's handles a B- (he ran the break alot at UConn)?

Greald Green's rebounding a C (he's 6'8)?

Deron's rebounding a C or C-?

Erm...I did.

So you're telling me Bogut is the best passing big man in the game, Villa the best ballhandling pf in the game, Green the best rebounding SG in the league and deron the best rebounding pg in the league?

You're telling me Bogut is in an offensive/rebounding class held by only one player in this league (Yao)?

And even with those high acclaims already, they all have max room to improve?

Like I said, if these men were really in an SSBA draft file, they'd all eventually be among the top 10 players in the league.

I completely agree with NetsGM. THIS is the best reason NOT do do "manual" draft lists as we all have tendencies to mix up potential and actual (current) skills and thus regularly overvalue guys

And how many guys who "ran the break alot at UConn" (or anywhere) failed to even make NBA rosters ? College shows and promotes superstars, but these are COLLEGE SUPERSTARS. Sometimes those potential superstars get good NBA players, sometimes not.

But NO WAY are/were they NBA superstars immediately, not LeBron, not Amare, not Wade, not even MJ.

And is that such a bad thing. When KG, Duncan, Shaq, all the stars of today retire, who is going to take their place? Nobody. The way things are going, we're going to have 29 teams that go 41-41 by scoring 80ppg and giving up 80ppg. There are no stars left. Petit is going to average 50ppg. Nick English is going to get 20 pts and 15 assists. There's no one coming to back them up.

The guys I had would have the potential to be amazing, yes. But the guys in our real draft have the potential to be only decent. And they are not even close to being there yet.

YOU DON'T REPLACE THEM IN 1 DRAFT!

KG, Duncan and Shaq all came in different years.  Garnett '95.  Shaq in '92.  Duncan in '97.  That's a 5 year period.

So far we have Pettit, Mercer, Ferry and English.  Boykins has potential.

If these drafts continue for the next decade, I agree, it's a problem.  If we try to replace 5 of these superstars every year, we'll have a bigger problem.

Who's going to replace Michael Stewart aka "the enigma"?!

Understandable. Petit, Mercer, yes. Ferry? Maybe. D potential, and has already started to decline. English is decent. But if Boykins is the best you can do, then there is going to be problems.

So far we've seen, what, 4 drafts? And we've had 1 great player, a handful of very good players, and a bunch of average-below average ones.

Erm...2 drafts.  2006 and 2007.

And I think English will be great.

And Boykins can be an offensive juggernaut.  B C offensively with an A potential is incredible.  If that improves to an A- C+, there isn't a big man in this league with those skills (only AI, Odom and McGrady have those kind of offensive ratings).

Well, that's a significant improvement...one that you have to count on for him to be anythign special.

And no, we've seen 3 drafts. 2006 (Tanner) 2007 (English) and 2008. Just because this draft has happened doesn't mean we haven't seen the prospects. The draft not happening yet is a moot point.

Going up a total of 3 categories isn't all that unlikely.

Heck, Mercer went up that and he was what, a D potential?

And no, we've only seen 2 drafts perform.  We haven't seen what these guys will do either in training camp or on the court.  They can't even begin to be fully evaluated.

You don't replace Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett and Shaq in one draft.  And your real nba ratings would do that.

this is going to be looooooong day...i'm going for the coffe

Well, yes, but obviously Mercer was just scouted at D.

Hey, I think we both agree on the main point- these drafts suck.

And I'm not asking for the guys I created to be added. So who cares if their so high.

The only thing I want to see is better players coming in via the draft. And I'm not being selfish here - I have a mid first this year. No first next year. My own 2010 pick, which I expect to be way to high to get anything decent.

I want to see more parity in this league. And the best way is for the drafts to be better.

If you want to do comparisons then take OUR 2006 draft class, look at their actual numbers and compare them to a random NBA draft class second year performance.  I think you will find that VERY FEW NBA players contribute much as second year players....even first round draft choices.

There are many highly rated NBA draftees that bust after a year or two.  Then there are several that take a few years to develop.  Look at Ginobili for the Spurs....it has taken until his third NBA season (after playing several years in Europe) to become an all-star.  Or Lewis for the Sonics - a second rounder that has taken 7 years to reach all-star status.  You can't expect every draftee to perform at their best as a rookie.  Those that are 18-20 years old can take beyond their rookie contracts to develop to their full potential.

Not a fair comparison. THe only way to compare is to watch them play. How big a role does Nick English play on his team, compared to the role that Dwight Howard plays on his team? Stats don't tell the whole story, but unfortunatly they are all we have to go with.

Team success is another story, and getting the number 1 pick only makes a team slightly better in the SSBA, where it makes a team alot better in the NBA. IMO.



I'm not talking about late first rounders like Ginobili and second rounders like Lewis. I'm talking about guys at the top. That should have been obvious by reading my posts.

I don't expect Matt Walsh to contribute very much to whichever team he ends up on this year. Same with David Lee. But Bogut, Williams, Paul, Green, those guys WILL contribute.

Strong, Boykins, etc. are not going to contribute in anywhere close to the same way unless they have monster TC's.

The main factor in whether a guy contributes as a rookie...in both the NBA & SSBA...is how much playing time they receive.  There are many instances in the NBA where the top draft picks haven't influenced a team.  Otherwise you wouldn't have teams like the Clippers and Hawks never getting anywhere (can you say Kandiman?).  How long did it take (and how many draft picks) for the baby Bulls to reach the playoffs?  

Instant success is NOT guaranteed by #1 draft picks except on rare occasions.  Hell, LeBron hasn't taken his team to the playoffs and he is considered a star in the NBA.  And how exactly is Milicic helping Detroit except as a cheerleader?

I understand that. GM's make mistakes. Darko, to me, is a moot point considering that Det is a game away from back to back titles.

There is a player or four in every NBA draft that contributes right away. Not in the SSBA.

In the TWO drafts that have taken place there has been at least one player that contributes.  In the first draft there was Pettitt, Ferry, Griffin, Mercer.  In the second there has been English aand probably at least one or two others if I took the time to review all the rosters.

In the real NBA you do not have a superstar rookie in every draft.    Even in drafts that have one...let's say the 1997 draft...there are only 2 players in the top ten that I would call superstars: Duncan & McGrady.  The other top ten draftees:  Keith Van Horn, Chauncy Billups, Antonio Daniels, Tony Battie, Ron Mercer, Tim Thomas, Adonal Foyle, Danny Forston.  Some solid players (just like what is happening in the SSBA) but no outstanding players.  And even if you want to move Billups up to outstanding then look at how many teams/years it has taken him to reach that status.

BTW, in this years draft...
Nicklaus English may become the best point in the league...
Bailey Snow started for the Celtics, and played well.
Devin Hinkle started for the Warriors, and contributed significantly.
As did Chase Hoiberg of the Sonics.
In fact, all three of those players were starters.
Roberto Dickau also put in some good minutes for the Sonics.

Just because they started didn't mean they necessarily played well.  all 4 of the guys listed missed the playoffs.

Bailey Snow can do 1 thing well, handle the ball.  And he barely squeaked out a 2-1 assist to turnover ratio.

Chase Hoiberg played nice, but as he proved this tc, don't expect much more than nice the rest of his career.

If Dickau improves his defense, he should be solid.  Not spectacular, but a solid starter.  Of course, he was the #3 pick in the draft, and the #2 player on most peoples boards, so a solid starter isn't an incredible achievement.

Hinkle played well, but I can't see him being much more than a Shane Battier.

Outside of English, nothing really to get excited about here.

If these drafts don't get a little more all-star talent, especially at non-pg positions, it will be a problem.

But RaptorsGM type drafts isn't the solution.

The point was to show that the players contributed.. I did not say the players were great, but they contributed significantly to their teams...

And, none of the rookies should lead their team to the playoffs.  The reason they are high picks is because the teams need alot of help...

And the 4 guys I mentioned did play well...  That is the point.

That's not what I said.  But you used minutes and starts as a way to show their production.  I simply said minutes doesn't necessarily show you anything/everything.

Not production... contributions...  No where did I state the word production.
Raps stated that there are 1-4 players in the NBA that contribute right away...  I was stating that the above players contributed to their teams, and significantly so.

It may depend on your definition of contribute.  For a rookie, contributing to me is a getting significant time, and helping the team win some games.  Others may have a different definition.

For my rookie (Devin Hinkle) he has done even better then I hoped.  I consider him to have made a huge contribution to my team, and now consider him one of my key core players.

That's what I'm talking about.  I'm not sure those players made significant contributions to their teams win column.  And I described why in my discussion of the specific players above.

Hmmm, taking last years (surprisingly good) NBA rookie class.

Now HOW many super rookies EXACTLY led their teams to a playoff spot? Last I checked, Benny did it as 6th man with Luol, Andres and Duhon in prominent roles (but non is considered a STAR yet), a couple of Boston backups, Iggy as a sidekick and Krstic.

Who did it NOT?
 - Emeka
 - Dwight & Jameer
 - The Atlanta Josh's
 - JR Smith

So I still do NOT see a point in getting nervous because a draft doesn't produce a star player immediately.  My only explanation ist that there is a tendency to give up on players because their stats don't improve every season (like Ferry). Guys, this will be a superstar for years to come who needs the right team balance to succeed (like in the real world).

Judging draft classes after 1 or even 2 seasons is an impossible task. Everyone of the "old" stars had at least 3 TCs AND started with higher ratings. With our fast pace in about half a year real time we will have played almost 3 more seasons and THEN I'd like to evaluate our draft system.

I completely agree with the CelticsGM.

You need to give these guys at least three years before you can say they suck or not.  Here are a few examples of what these guys could become.

Ivan Strong: B+ inside, B+ outside (very similar to the real dirk)
George Boykings: A- inside, A- defense (very similar to stoudemire)
Patrick Gatling: A- inside, B outside, B- handles, A- defense: (mcgrady esque)
Andy Miles: B outside, A handles, B defense (not far off English, who is considered a future star)
Gregory Shabinger: B outside, A- handles, B defense, C+ rebounds (just a shade under Miles, with rebounding)

That is five players who could become stars.  And yes, this is a fairly weak draft.

Instilling players like the Raptors suggested, with ratings of B's across the board is insane.  These players would be in the top 15 right off the bat with no TC involved.  Add in the potential, and you have the best five or seven players after one season.  Even LeBron (who is a one-in-a-lifetime sensation) took over a year to become good.  It took him two to become great.

You have to have patience with these drafts.  Take a look in a few seasons, and you will see quite a few players making all-star teams and enormous impacts in the league.

For example, Dickau, English, Hoiberg and Stockton could all become all-stars.  Kundla, who was picked late the year before, is another potential stud.  Add in the likes of Ferry, Houbregs, Griffin, Pettitt, Mercer, Snow, Diddle, Hinkle and the new class of Gatling, Schabinger, Miles, Strong and Boykins, and there is a nice young group of players making an impact.

Patience is a virtue.

great statements by the celtics and the sonics..

another point is against creating such players with these ratings is that i would dump everyone on my team for draft picks try to loose as many games asp and win it in two years with a bunch of superstars out of the draft and capspace. something similar the sonics tried, but won´t take the same amount of time.

i really like the way this league is built. you can show your skills in so many different ways and the draft shouldn´t be the only one.

Where are people getting this?

When I had this discussion, I clearly said I was against making draft classes like RaptorsGM.  Nobody's talking about a "bunch of superstars out of the draft".  That's completely different than saying that the drafts aren't replenishing the departing talent.

But the drafts ARE replacing the departing talent.  If you take the nearly 450 players that make up the rosters and marginal free agents (ones who are added & dropped), rate them out on whatever scale you want, then compare the averages, medians and deviations you will see that for the past 3 years the overall talent pool has remained fairly constant.

Part of the problem right now IMO stems from the fact that the top superstars are real NBA players.  As we allow a few more seasons go past fewer and fewer of those players will exist.  Then we will see some of the results from the first few drafts.  

Give these current guys time to reach their prime instead of judging them as 20-24 year olds.  Wait until they are 26-30 years old to judge how successful the program is at generating drafts.  When I had 8 draft picks in the first draft I planned on it being a 5 year project.  I have players that are looking like solid starters that are 21-23 years old.  They NEED TIME to develop.

Look at my earlier post that listed the top ten players from the 1997 NBA draft.  How many of those players were considered all-stars or even strong starters in their second season?  After 8 seasons how many of them are perennial all-stars?

Well, that's where we disagree.  Players in SSBA don't develop like they do in the NBA.  In the NBA, you do have guys like Chauncey Billups who need time to develop AND find the right team to fit into.  The SSBA development is much more methodical.  There are much less variables.  

But we'll see.

Would everyone get off my ass about this? I NEVER SAID I WANTED THESE PLAYERS INSTILLED.

I made a few points, one being that our drafts suck, the other being that I thought the ratings of players in SSBA are too low.

I did this for fun, and what I gave the NBA guys ratings wise has nothing to do with this discussion.

Read all of my posts, or don't comment on it.

the rookie ratings that Raps gave arent extremely off...


but you can't really compare the NBA Rooks to SSBA rooks...its a totally different scale...try making an entire NBA team's ratings and then compare to SSBA's ratings...the same guys will be the best, however it'll just be scaled down a lot..

Blazers, you just said exactly what I've been saying.

I hope people understand what you've said better than they do what I've said.

 :D

Again I disagree. The ratings ARE indeed extremely off - overrated that is, as I think the base for this rating is wrong. Let me explain:

To evaluate rookies with our Sim ratings you first have to rate current players, especially star players, with our ratings and THEN rate the rookies in relation to these superstar ratings.

Take an example: Gerald Green (18 ), 6'8, 200, B- A- B B C+ A
Now compare him to a star SG like Kobe. How would you rate him compared to this rookie ratings ? An (unjustified) abundance of A's and A+'s ? And Kobe is not even considered one of the best anymore.

Thus I think the more appropriate rating might be just about a letter higher: Gerald Green (18 ), 6'8, 200, C- B- C C D+ A. (I'm fully aware that this rating I suggest stinks because not only have I never seen Green play nor am I aware of his skills. But since I saw tons of rookies fighting for their place in the league, THIS rating is what I would consider a pretty good rookie in comparison to a superstar rating)

And finally, I don't believe anyone is interested in making RapsGM' work look bad. No way, I think it's good work, very interesting and a sound analysis, just with a strong bias towards the NBA rookies. And it's fun having this in an extended discussion with different opinions . But personal, it's definitely not !

 :wink:

Celtics, no offense, but ratings like the ones you just gave Green ARE the reasons why we are having these discussion.

C- B- C C D+ A.

That's a really shitty player, just like the ones in our drafts.

So, your ratings are very realistic to what we have in our drafts. But that doesn't make it right.

This time I agree.

But this IS a shitty draft with shitty players. Why make them look better than they are ? I'm sure there will be better draft classes again, in the SSBA and in the NBA as well.

So why do I believe this ? Because there HAVE been better draft classes with superstars before and right now we see experience the "shallow years". But we won't have this forever, I guess. In a short time we'll see the next class and I'm curious to see what it will bring ...

Celtics, truely impossible to guess on next years' class, or the year after.

Will we see a Petit/Mercer class again? Impossible to tell.

It's just all random.

And what my feelings are is that if we see another draft like this, we need to start to tweak the ratings of some players to make it worthwhile to keep a top 5 pick.

I think we do need better players in the SSBA drafts...but I also think that aside from Raymond Felton, nobody in this year's NBA draft will be an impact player, this is one of the worst NBA drafts in a while IMO.  Gerald Green is probably a little higher than the Celtics ratings but not too much.  From what I've seen he can shoot a little, he can dunk and that's pretty much it.  He can't dribble at an NBA level, he's too weak to play the 3, but not quick enough defensively to play the 2.  I'm not saying he won't turn into a decent player, but he's not ready yet.  My point is it's ok to have a bad draft or 2, but I think adding a few guys in any random drafts isn't a bad idea.  As Nets said the SSBA players won't improve like a lot of the guys in the NBA do further into their career.  Larry Brown made Chauncey Billups good in the NBA, you let Jim O'Brien coach him and he's not an all-star player

 :shock:

I couldn't disagree more. I think Bogut will average 16 and 12 next year, I think Paul and D.Williams will become two of the top 10 PGs in the NBA. I think Danny Granger will turn out to be as good or better than Shawn Marion.

I think this is one of the top 5 drafts EVER.

Raps, some of your draft analysis has warrented a :shock:

This will be a deep draft, no question about that.  Players like Head, Nate Robinson, Maxiell, Hodge, Ellis etc would be 1rst rounders in most other seasons.  But this is not a top 5 draft of all time.  Outside of Bogut, Paul Deron, I don't think anyone will be a MAJOR contributor next year.

First you said Bogut will be one of the best rebounders of all time, now Granger being better than Marion?  He doesn't have the perimeter game Marion has, and Grangers man to man defense is very much unproven (because of the New Mexico zone)

absoultly no way bogut will be 16/12 guy in his first year

In the east?  Sure he will, I'd be very surprised if he wasn't

So Bogut will rebound better than any player in the NBA except Garnett and Wallace??????   They were the only TWO players to average 12 boards a game.  Not Shaq.  Not Duncan.  Not even any Phoenix player who played under a run & gun system (more shots = more rebound opportunities).

Wait and watch.

16+/12

Top rebounder on the bucks? Joe Smith at 7.3 per.

Bogut is going to get alot of chances.

Listen to the experts, and your opinion will be different.  Bogut is nice, but he will never be a super star.  Green and both Williams could be very good, but it's a crapshoot, like all other drafts.

This NBA draft isn't very good, especially for ready-now talent.  The Raptors ratings would have had Bogut average a crazy 25 and 13 with Green scoring 29, 10 and 8.  They may get to those ratings in a few years, but not as rookies.  

My point in a nutshell: Raptors rated these guys as they could be in their prime.  Not as an 18 year old rookie entering the league.  Green is a great HS player, as Kobe and T-Mac were (not necessarily Lebron-good).  Kobe and T-mac did NOTHING as rookies...they didn't score 20 PPG.  So, ratings similar to what the Celtics stated are more realistic.  That's all I have to say.

I'll agree with Raps, talent wise this is a top 5 draft.  The thing I don't think he is right on is the intangibles these kids have.  Deron Williams is a hard nose player who gives it 110%, but his defense is lacking and he will always be in foul trouble because he uses his hands on man to man defense.  The way refs called games he'll be sitting in 10 minutes guarding a guy like Luke Ridnour.

Bogut also has a lot of good attributes.  He has a mean streak to him but he also needs to be smart while using his mean streak.  NBA is a totally different game, his hands are impeccable, but his foot work isn't as good IMO, an average NBA defender will be able to tell what he's going to do before he does it.

Chris Paul has the best chance of being great in this league.  He's a smart player, great handles and good leader.  But right now he's too small to be effective, no way he's gonna guard Chauncey Billups, Gary Payton, Jason Kidd or any guard 6'2 and over with a little meat on them.  Saying this, I'd take Paul #1 despite his size and streaky shooting.

Granger I haven't seen enough to comment too heavily on.  But I saw a game in the tournament and based on that game he's offensively gifted, his outside shot has potential, but he's a far far way from Marion defensively on the perimeter.

As for Green, he jumped up in the draft because of the all-star games.  He's as athletic as hell and can shoot pretty decent from a college 3.  I don't think his shot is quick enough to get off with a guy in his face, saying that his jumping ability will help out.  He will have to change his mechanics to have an effective NBA jumper, which you need as a 2 guard which I think they ae having him play in the NBA.  He WILL NOT be able to guard any starting SG's in the NBA until maybe 3 or 4 years in te league.  He has potential to become an effective player in the league averaing maybe 12/5/5 but i think he'll be the next Darius Miles, and overpayed guy who turns into a team cancer with an attitude problem.  That's just my opinion as I eat my egg whites and toast early this morning
This draft has some good prospects but it's not top 5 IMO

Wha?  Deron is a great defender, due to his lack of lateral quicks in college he HAD to use his footwork and bball IQ, his defense isn't lacking.  Now that he's actually in shape and has faster lateral speed than Paul, he should be fine defensively



I probably haven't seen as much of Bogut as you have, but his footwork is one of his strengths.  His defense is an issue, not anything on the offensive side.  Whenever I saw him play, he was actually running the team, dictating to his teammates where to go.  He's a great passer, and has a great understanding of the game



This isn't directed at you specifically, but where is everyone getting this from?  Since when is Green a cancer with an attitude problem?  Maybe I'm missing something here, but I think people just assume he has an attitude problem because he's from highschool

Yes Deron has good foot skills, but that's against Big Ten opponents.  He won't be able to move his feet quick enough in the league, and I think he'll use his good upper body strength to make up for that, leading to fouls.



Yea, I haven't seen much besides the tourney, but from what I saw he used his height to his advantage.  His foot skills are good in drills at the camps.  But relating that to the game is totally different IMO.  He's VERY predictable with his moves inside.



I read an article that he wouldn't do certain drills at a workout and he didn't looked pleased to be there.  I ever read that he didn't show up for a team workout and his agent was making excuses.  This wasn't a very reputable source and I can't find the article but if I do I'll post it, it could just be a bunch of BS.  Even without the attitude issues, he isn't gonna be good enough to be a star, and I think I would take a lot of guys in this draft before him...all of this is just my opinion though, also it's not directed at anyone, just some friendly banter....I like talking about this stuff, so keep the varying opinions coming

i just don't trust to white 1st pick! Big Country Reeves always comes to mind :P

Big Country wasn't a 1rst overall pick, and he was a 16/9 player before his chronic injuries kicked in.

true, he was a force until he got injured, too bad, he would have been a solid starter for his career

i don't know, i just don't trust to my own people! Croat being the first pick overall makes me very skeptical :?

Roko Ukic is going to be a very good NBA player.

Hoping the Raptors can get him at 16.

And he's from Croatia.

i just can't belive how high are people on him. i played against him for gods sake. he's a poor man Shawn Livingston or Sebastian Telfair. i tell you, he'll get murdered in NBA

Sorry, but I find that very hard to believe.

If I played against a player that was slated to be a late lotto - mid first round pick, I would be bragging about it to everyone who would listen.

Are you saying you play for a team that plays against the KK Split, or did you play against him when you were 3 years old?

It's not that hard to belive since i live in state which has 4,5 million citizens. that's 1 New York suburb.

And second i played against him some 3,5 years ago while he was playin for both KK Split (divison 1) and KK Solin (divison 2). i played for Luka Tranzit (divison 2) at that time and we were playin vs Solin in my hometown Osijek.

And i don't find anything interested to bragg around cause it seems to me like anyone can be a lotto these days :?

and yes..haha, i also played against Dalibor Bagaric! Man, whata joke of a player. i just can't belive he played for the Bulls. shit i know about 20 people who stop watchin NBA cause of Zoran Planinic, Dalibor Bagaric and Bruno Sundov. and they're right. as i said anyone can come to the league these days

well, everyone said that about Manu before he went to the NBA :D

no freakin way to compare roko with manu. manu was the top european player at that time and he was 2 time MVP of Italian league which is 5X better then Croatian league